Report 1266
Report #1266 Skillset: Celestialism Skill: Blessed(pledges) Org: Celestines Status: Rejected Sept 2013 Furies' Decision: We don't feel this is necessary. Problem: There are a few afflictions within our list of pledges that are useless in Celestine combat, but given a suggested thought, it has come to mind that instead, we would do better with the impatience affliction rather than dementia primarily or shyness. The others can be situational, and even at that, rarely used apart from the usual vapors, anorexia, stupidity, sensitivity, recklessness and paralysis list of useful Celestine afflictions for a designated kill-if ever gotten to the part, mind you. This report seeks to fix that issue to an affliction more useful. Solution #1: Remove dementia from Shakiniel's list of pledges and replace with impatience. Solution #2: Remove shyness from Japhiel's list of pledges and replace with impatience Player Comments: ---on 9/5 @ 12:42 writes: I'll leave the third solution open for any desireable alternative that may come up. ---on 9/5 @ 20:24 writes: Not sure how I feel about easily investible impatience + anorexia angles coupled with aeon throws. Seems a bit much. ---on 9/5 @ 20:25 writes: Balls. I mean angels. I am not being very acute today. Pretty obtuse, in fact. ---on 9/6 @ 18:35 writes: I don't see anything wrong with anorexia and impatience in an aeon lock. It's not worse than amnesia + anorexia. I support solutions 1 or 2. ---on 9/7 @ 13:44 writes: Once you put in on a pledge, you can also use it on a symbol (so you're not just limited to the two affs from the angel but can also throw it- or amnesia- in on demand and time it to the passive tick). I'm going to have to agree with Sojiro here. It's adding a pretty strong combination aff to a list of passive afflictions which can perpetuate and enhance a soft lock, which is moving things more towards the "too easy" line- the more you can do passively, the less you actually have to push forward. ---on 9/7 @ 14:17 writes: Given that, if they are using symbol for impatience, they cannot also be flinging aeon. ---on 9/7 @ 14:24 writes: He means to use that symbol for perpetuating the lock once it's been gotten. Still definitely uneasy with this idea especially given the other report to make scourge/wrath permanent. ---on 9/8 @ 04:55 writes: ^ ---on 9/8 @ 18:59 writes: Not supported. As has been said, passive impatience + anorexia when combined with aeon is a bit much. That said, dementia is not a useless affliction and can easily throw the majority of low-mid tier players off their focus without realizing what's happening. You also have access to some pretty powerful passive afflictions already. Not to mention that heretic and infidel can passively give mental afflictions (which would be further hindered by the impatience), as well. ---on 9/8 @ 20:47 writes: Impatience does nothing to hinder aeon curing except that, on 50% chance, smoking coltsfoot may cure impatience except anorexia. 50% is less poweful than 100%, which amnesia/anorexia does better. I sense a silly, elementary-style denying of Celestine class when it's pretty clear and obvious that this report is fair in every means. Dementia is not useful to a Celestine, it's a pretty useless affliction -all around-. I still support solution 1 or 2. ---on 9/8 @ 20:49 writes: Also just for everyone's knowledge, a Celestine can't really softlock so impatience does nothing to assist in a softlock for a Celestine. ---on 9/8 @ 20:50 writes: Also, if a target is aeoned with anorexia/impatience, using symbol evoke impatience over and over really does nothing to ensure the aeon lock stays, since it's anorexia you'd rather be using to ensure lockage. ---on 9/8 @ 21:28 writes: Impatience/anorexia will further slow down the curing of aeon, not create a lock. This is correct. However, the question is not merely about perpetuating the aeon, but also with the frequency with which this combination can be done. One Celestine will be able to perpetuate a (mechanical) 2s aeon every 8s for 80 seconds. For a Celestine, this is a good way to keep someone still while they build an Inquisition into a Soulless. However, Celestines are already pretty good at that with Fall, Carcer, and the ability to hide the fling under blackout. I don't think it would be too much to ask for them to have this in this situation. However, the ability to PASSIVELY inflict impatience + anorexia is far too strong in a group setting, and not only for Tarot users. A Tarot user is going to be able to fling aeon right before the passive tic and follow it up with a shieldstun to lock someone out of curing the aeon, and probably the anorexia, while someone else wails on the target. The only other means of inflicting impatience + anorexia reliably at the same time is by being a Hexen and using it -actively-. To hide it, it costs 1p. When you consider that angel attacks are "hidden" (as you can assume what afflictions have been given, though with no degree of certainty I can partly understand the argument that it costs 10p to set this up. However, being able to set this up to reliably kill a primary target is in line with the time and power cost of an attritional means of doing the same thing), it starts to show just how powerful this setup could be in a small-skirmish situation. If the impatience/anorexia were not passive, it would not be a problem. That said, this is also a massive buff for Healers, as well. Homeostasis prevents eating AND smoking herbs. Since homeostasis tics from Aurawarp are completely static, it would be entirely possible to time the application of aurawarp so that an opponent cannot cure the anorexia for quite a long time. While curing impatience -and- anorexia is still possi ---on 9/8 @ 21:28 writes: Possible under homeostasis with focus mind, it's far too easy for quite literaaly any other guild to stack mental afflictions. Also, to put this beside the Celestine's own citymates, a Tahtetso and a Celestine healer are going to be able to perpetuate a hemiplegy lock with literally no effort at all through timing aurawarp and the passive impatience + anorexia. ---on 9/8 @ 21:29 writes: TLDR: Passive impatience+anorexia is too strong for anyone. ---on 9/9 @ 11:58 writes: Impatience + anorexia is not stronger than amnesia + anorexia in regards to aeon locks. Nearly every affliction guild can deal impatience and anorexia, I don't see the problem with allowing Celestines to be able to do it via their main (and nearly only) means of afflicting. Even if given solution 1, I don't see how a Celestine in a real situation would use anorexia + impatience in a 1 on 1 fight and have it be useful. Sad to say the strongest pacts are still going to be only vapors/paralyse/kneel. But Impatience is much more useful than dementia, and it could have slight potential for use in certain situations, which is why I'm in support. ---on 9/9 @ 14:21 writes: What guilds have passive impatience/anorexia? I can't think of any off the top of my head ---on 9/9 @ 16:12 writes: If I recall correctly, Institute(?) I know they can give a lot of mental afflictions through the sapphire gem if left unchecked. Also, wouldn't that be the same as a hexen with impatience/anorexia applied when one tries to move them-to afflict passively, per se if a hexen did use that method? With that in mind, Celestines using dementia in any scenario has no ideal purpose, as again, it doesn't do anything to be of hindering use, just a minor annoyance if at that. As well, amnesia would be worse as its the same as forgetting to sip, and if forgetting to sip when especially when it becomes a life or death scenario as to how close you are to death, it proves to be fatal. The only thing I see with impatience is that its just another step in terms of what you have to cure and yet more effective than what will never be used in any Celestine combat. ---on 9/9 @ 19:27 writes: Institute or hexens can't give anorexia/impatience passively at the same time. If you're actively forcemoving them to make hexes hit, that's really an active attack, not a passive one. Sapphire can maybe give one of those at any given time, but not both together. I don't really think there is an archetype that can give anorexia/impatience passively together, and this report is pretty much asking for a passive anorexia/impatience on demand. I still don't buy that anorexia/impatience is any weaker or stronger than amnesia/anorexia, It's impossible to perpetuate anorexia/amnesia (you have one failed command, then boom, a cure) vs two afflictions that you can keep sticking to perpetuate an aeon lock. Add in something like beast spit chansu and you have an even stronger aeonlock, something which doesn't help amnesia/anorexia whatsoever. I agree that dementia isn't as useful, but impatience seems a bit too much as a replacement. ---on 9/9 @ 19:31 writes: Synkarin means reliable passive anorexia/impatience. Lots of guilds have the possibility of giving it if given enough time but it will be quite random. For the purposes of this discussion, no guilds can reliably do it passively right now IIRC (and for good reason) ---on 9/11 @ 01:56 writes: As Synkarin has mentioned, reactive does not equate to passive (especially not passive one a 100% predictable timer). Impatience + anorexia -is- stronger than amnesia + anorexia at a mechanical level, as impatience actually requires a cure. I'll also note, again, that this combination is far too strong in a group setting (see my previous comment above) and also is far too strong for Healers (also in my previous comment). ---on 9/11 @ 20:30 writes: Hm, I don't find impatience+anorexia stronger than forgetting to cure and being denied to cure at the same time rather than taking an extra step in curing one over the other. ---on 9/12 @ 00:38 writes: I'm afraid I don't understand the previous comment Yurika, can you please elaborate on it? ---on 9/12 @ 02:31 writes: @Yurika: Uhhh... because impatience persists to do things until it is cured, whereas amnesia blocks one action then does nothing else ever. ---on 9/12 @ 09:00 writes: Nihilists can give anorexia/impatience with demon. I don't use anorexia/impatience though, because anorexia/stupidity is stronger when using aeon (as is anorexia/amnesia) ---on 9/12 @ 11:15 writes: I have to say that it's pretty impossible for anorexia / amnesia to be stronger, because amnesia was changed to always block the first command. At -absolute most- it will eat the first command entered. You know, the same command that someone might cure impatience with (though if they don't, they would still have impatience, and are now behind). They are either equal -or- impatience is stronger because its cure is not "any command". TL-DR: Amnesia is cured by -ANY- action, Impatience is cured by a -SPECIFIC- action, giving a person and their system much more leeway to deal with the former (since it doesn't matter what they do, it will be cured automatically). ---on 9/12 @ 20:44 writes: How is impatience going to break Celestine combat? How overpowered is this affliction that they can't replace a useless one with one that will at least do something. Impatience will not help in any sort of aeon lock (stupidity is a far far far far far far better choice and so is amnesia), and how is impatience going to assist them in gaining inquisition, when paralyse/kneel is a far far far far far better alternative? ---on 9/12 @ 20:47 writes: @Xenthos Speaking from one who uses aeon and afflictions to stop others from curing aeon, amnesia > impatience in those terms. All impatience does is eat one focus mind command, or 50% chance to be cured from smoke coltsfoot (or it stops focus body, but with such an easy way to cure it only stops the focus body process by .5 seconds or less) Impatience is really an affliction for Illuminati/Druid classes are really the only classes who can use impatience to its full potential really well. So what is extremely game-breaking about giving Celestines this affliction? ---on 9/13 @ 00:18 writes: How exactly is stupidity a better option than impatience to stop curing aeon? stupidity is a 33% command denial, which is a lot weaker than the 50% chance to cure impatience over anorexia with coltsfoot that you are suggesting, so really, 33% chance is less effective than 50% chance, which means that impatience -still- trumps it. Amnesia, as has been explained several times, blocks -one- command. This means you can do ANYTHING and amnesia is cured, where as impatience requires a focus/herb cure. I would even say that stupidity/anorexia is a stronger combo than amnesia/anorexia just because stupidity can persist past one action. If you combine impatience/anorexia with a welltimed beast spit chansu, you have a decent soft aeon lock (asthma/anorexia/impatience) which guess what, makes it even stronger than amnesia/anorexia or stupidity/anorexia. This has been explained several times and you have yet to actual refute these with anything meaningful other than your personal opinion, which frankly, is just not backed up by the mechanics of the situation. Kio already explained that this is -really really strong- in groups. That's why this is too much. ---on 9/13 @ 15:26 writes: Impatience has a chance of only blocking one command, 50% of the time. Stupidity can potentially block MULTIPLE commands on 33% chance, which, yes, makes it a better choice than impatience. Asthma/stupidity/anorexia is stronger than asthma/impatience/anorexia, because the stupidity can hinder the curing of the asthma and the anorexia, more than once (i've failed smoke coltsfoot 3 times once due to stupidity, a rare occurance but a very possible one.) ---on 9/13 @ 22:17 writes: Asthma/impatience/anorexia is more promising aeon lock than asthma/stupidity/anorexia anyday of the week, asthma/impatience/anorexia is a minimum 3 second cure (apply melancholic/smoke coltsfoot/sip phlegmatic) where as asthma/stupidity/anorexia is a 2 second minium. (focus anorexia off/sip phlegmatic). You have more of a window to reapply afflictions in 3 seconds than 2 seconds. Yeah you may get lucky and get some command denial, but you may not. I don't think that makes the stupidty version any stronger than the impatience version. ---on 9/14 @ 16:23 writes: @Thoros (9/12 @ 20:44): I have already detailed why the repeated passive application of impatience/anorexia is so strong for not only Tarot in my previous comments on 9/8 @ 21:28 writes. In reference to (9/12 # 20:47), you are not the only one who uses afflictions to prevent aeon curing. From -my- experience, impatience/anorexia has always turned out better results. Regardless, both of our statements are merely anecdotal. Many people have stated the mechanical reason why impatience/anorexia is stronger than amnesia/anorexia. ---on 9/16 @ 23:27 writes: Hrm